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Sometimes history inspires us.

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I believe that this nation should commit itself
to achieving the goal, before this decade

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is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning
him safely to the earth.

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Sometimes we find ourselves in the middle
of history being made.

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The next American man and the first woman
ever will be Americans on the surface of the

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moon within five years.

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EGS Program chief engineer verifying no constraints
to launch. Three, two, one, and lift off.

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Welcome to space.

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Now we are in the middle of the most aggressive
push for the moon since we landed there the

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first time 50 years ago. Leading the charge
is the first female Launch Director, Charlie

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Blackwell-Thompson. She and her right-hand
woman, Jessica Parsons, took a few minutes

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out of their incredibly busy schedule to share
some unique perspectives.

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All right, I'm here in the booth now with
Charlie Blackwell-Thompson and Jessica Parsons.

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Ladies, thanks for joining me today.

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Oh, we're happy to be here.

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Thanks for having us.

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Absolutely, so I want to let you all introduce
yourselves. So tell us a little bit about

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what your role is for NASA and Exploration
Ground Systems and kind of how you got where

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you are just real briefly.

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Okay, well, Jess, you want me to go first
or...?

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Sure.

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Okay, well, I'm Charlie Blackwell-Thompson.
I am the Launch Director. So I think I have

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a pretty-

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Hold on...Launch Director...that's a pretty
awesome title. So I'm assuming that means

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really the buck stops with you when it comes
to launch day.

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That's a pretty fair assessment, I would say.
It's a fantastic job! I think a lot of folks

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think about day of launch when you think about
the launch director, right...the one that

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gives that final "Go" to the team to proceed
into terminal count. But our days are really

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filled now with getting ready for that launch...in
planning the launch countdown, the procedures,

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and getting our team ready to go. So there's
a tremendous amount of work that goes into

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or precedes that actual day of launch. But
no doubt about it, I have an absolutely fantastic

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job. I get to work with an incredible group
of people.

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I obviously cut you off, so I want to let
you continue. Kind of tell us, how did you

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get to be the Launch Director?

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Well, let's see, I came to Kennedy Space Center
30 years ago right out of school, right out

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of Clemson University...so go Tigers! I had
a tour of Firing Room 1. As part of that,

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it was interview over in the payload side
of the house. It was actually in their flight

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software area. So I toured through Firing
Room 1, and I heard the team that was actually

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getting Space Shuttle Discovery ready for
return to flight. They were in there working,

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and they were testing out the flight hardware.
I was really struck when I walked through

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the room with wanting to be a part of that
team. So I was lucky enough to get selected

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for that job. So I started my career in payloads.
Thought I had the most fantastic job in the

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entire world. I got to work on planetary spacecraft.
I got to work on the International Space Station.

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I got to work on the Hubble Space Telescope.
So here I am, a country girl from South Carolina,

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and I get this amazing opportunity. Then when
the Shuttle Program ended, I had an opportunity

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to take some of that experience I had on the
launch side of things and move over to Exploration

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Ground Systems and help them with their launch
planning...which eventually led to the role

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of the Launch Director.

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Amazing...and for those that don't know, the
Firing Room that you toured is now where you

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will be conducting a team to launch SLS here
hopefully next year.

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Yes, it is not lost on me at all. When I walk
in that room...and I'm in there multiple times

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a week...when I walk in the room, I have that
same feeling I had 30 years ago. It is that

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I want to be a part of this team. I want to
be a part of this team that's getting our

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ground systems ready for the flight hardware,
and a part of the team that is going to return

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to the moon in five years. I mean, how exciting
is that?

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Yeah, it's pretty awesome. We will talk more
about that in a minute. Jessica, I want to

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make sure you get a chance to introduce yourself.
Is it fair to say that you're kind of playing

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right hand to Charlie? Is that an accurate
assessment?

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Yeah, I would say that. I am Charlie's Technical
Assistant. This is a new role, I think, both

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for her and for me. Let's see, I'll give you
a little of my background. I grew up...and

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I can remember probably when I was five years
old, I was like, "I want to work for NASA.”

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That was my dream. I had my career set in
mind since I was a little kid. So what I did

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in high school actually was I talked to my
career counselor and I said, "Well, what career

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will get me to work for NASA?” They were
like, well, maybe an engineer field. So I

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started looking at different...there was like
aerospace engineer. I'm like, well, that one

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has the "space" word in it. I'm going for
it. I will tell you something a lot of people

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probably don't know, but I didn't speak English
till I was 15. So I found myself a different

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language, and I went to a college education
just because I wanted to pursue my dream to

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work for NASA.

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That's awesome.

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So that's the advice I would give not only
the little girls or girls or anybody...just

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follow your dreams. Doing that is what has
gotten me where I am today...just never giving

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up, following every obstacle, following through,
giving my best every time. I think whatever

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they want to achieve, they will get there.
I will say that I'm working for Charlie kind

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of by luck. She needed some help doing some
technical integrations for aspects that were

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related to launch. I had worked for her doing
an assignment, and she said, "Oh, it's some

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help I kind of need in this area.” Then
that ended up turning into a more full-time

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job, and I've been doing this for probably
the last year now. I will tell you, it's a

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job that I love. I never thought in my career
that I was going to be support in the Firing

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Room. We had our first, like, cryo sim demo.
When we had that I was like...I sat in the

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Firing Room, I listened to the team. I was
just there kind of listening my first time

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going through a countdown of what it would
be...a demo of our countdown. I was like,

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wow, this is what I want to do. I want to
be part o f this team. Since then, I think,

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I haven't looked back.

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She doesn't give herself, I would say, full
credit, right? Jess is responsible for many

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of the technical aspects and the technical
integration of our launch countdown. So she

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leads a lot of different studies, a lot of
different trades that we do. When we look

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at our requirements for launch, she leads
that effort for me in terms of the evaluation

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of those requirements and kind of how they
fit into our planning. So she is very much

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key to everything that we're doing on the
launch planning side of things.

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So kind of a pair of questions. Number one,
is it nerve-wracking to try and design all

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this without having the actual hardware here?
Number two, is it normal? Is that what happens

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for every space vehicle and rocket and mission?

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Well, I think it is normal. I'm going to take,
I'll say, the easier part of that first. I

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think is normal. If you look across the suite
of launch vehicles with NASA and Commercial,

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and I'll go back in my background to early
ISS when we were designing the ground systems

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to support the flight elements that would
come. So I think that is normal. But the exciting

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part is when you get the flight hardware here
and you begin to integrate the flight hardware

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with the ground systems. You begin to power
up those flight elements, and they come to

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life. You see what sort of challenges they
may throw at you...things that you've got

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to go work to resolve. To me, that's the...I'll
say the fun part (laughing). So we definitely

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look forward to getting that flight hardware
here at KSC.

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Once we get hardware here, once we check it
out, we know we're in good shape, it's time

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to get ready for a launch. Launch countdown
is where I believe your jobs really kind of...that's

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where it all culminates, is in that countdown.
I've looked over some shoulders; I've seen

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some of these manuals. How big is the countdown
script? Because there's actually a script

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that you guys use. How big is that?

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Well, that's a hard one to answer just yet
because it's still being developed, right?

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So we're still working on it. What I can tell
you is...and it won't be as big as what we

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had in Shuttle. In Shuttle, we had six volumes
of launch countdown. When I say a volume,

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it occupied a multi-inch binder because it
was all paper. So we had six volumes that

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defined launch countdown. Now when I say that,
it wasn't six volumes of every step we're

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going to go do. It was a couple of volumes
of every step we're going to go do. It was

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a volume that said this is what we do when
we scrub, and this is how we turn the vehicle

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around. We had another for any kind of issues
that arose. So we had what we call "pre-planned

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contingency procedures," where if you had
an LCC exceedance, you could go run these

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and hopefully get to a point where you could
go launch. We will have something similar.

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It won't be nearly as big. In terms of page
count, it's hard to say right now because

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it's still in work; and it's also electronic.
So it's different than what we had. It's not

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quite as visible in terms of the volumes...you
know, it takes up a bookshelf. It's not quite

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like that. It will be hundreds of equivalent
pages when we're all done.

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Jess, do you think you'll ever get to a point
where you feel like you know the countdown...

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like where you've been through the book…

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It is my expectation.

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…You really feel like I know this countdown?
Obviously, the book is there to make sure

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every step is right, but can you get there
on like this massive process?

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I think so. I mean, I think I have to; otherwise
she'll fire me (laughing). No, but I think

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it's partly linked to the process. We're reviewing
the requirements a year, two years, in advance

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prior to the launch. So I'll be able to become
familiar with, okay, what is supposed to happen?

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What is needed in order to support this requirement?
What is the timing of it? We also have the

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process where we do a lot of simulations to
train our launch team. I think being part

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of those really helps us walk through that
launch countdown and make sure that every

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day we become a lot more familiar with it.

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And I would say from my experience on Shuttle,
I didn't know the entire book...because you

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really do depend on your team to know their
particular steps.

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Yeah.

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But what you do know is how all of that work
fits together and kind of what you have to

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do...kind of what you have to do first, what
you have to do second, what drives what...kind

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of the puts and takes of launch countdown.
Those things that are critical, you absolutely

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know. I can remember in Shuttle...and we'll
have similar steps for this vehicle. I can

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remember in Shuttle, we had...as you got down
late into launch countdown, you had a series

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of steps that in the event that you had an
engine that got shut down or you ended up

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having a cutoff on the pad, you always had
your fingers sleeved into those contingency

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steps because you knew that you're going to
run those steps. And you're going to run them

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quickly. I can tell you even now, it's been
years since our last shuttle launch, and I

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can still run through those first few steps
from memory because, like Jess said, you practiced

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them in a sim. It was something that was a
part of every single sim. You knew that they

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were time-critical steps, and they needed
to be executed as such. So I would imagine

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that everybody on our team will have those
areas that are most important and most critical

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for them, and they will absolutely know that
countdown. There's not a doubt in my mind.

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So when you were asking Jess that question,
I was shaking my head because I'm thinking

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I know everybody's going to know that.

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How much of that is the way that you operate...as
far as like, are you drilling your team? Do

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you have drills? What are these sims like
to get people ready to be prepared for that?

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Well, "drill" is kind of a tough word.

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I don't know your style...I'm just asking
the question.

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I would say that...what is the style? I mean,
we certainly have an expectation of excellence

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within our team. I would say that's for all
of us, myself included. We definitely practice.

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We're at the beginning of our sim planning
and at the beginning of our sim regime. So

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my expectation is different today than it
will be six months from now.

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Sure.

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But that's the reason we go through these...is
so that by the time we get to launch, those

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challenges, those technical problems that
can come up, those critical situations where

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you need to execute very quickly and very
decisively, our team has had an opportunity

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to practice those and practice them and practice
them again.

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Thinking about the fact that this is a team
that make all this happen, we know that it

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takes an army from design through construction
through delivery through preparation. How

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big of a team are we talking about on launch
day?

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We will have folks in Mission Control as part
of the team there.

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In Houston?

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In Houston.

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Okay.

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We also will have folks that are in the Orion...their
engineering team that sits in the Orion Mer.

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We have a team of SLS, the SLS Engineering
Support Team, that sits in the SESC, which

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is a part of the HOSC at Marshall. Then we
have our team here. So asking how big is our

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team...it's always a tough one for me because
I know how many people sit in the Firing Room.

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We have just under 100 folks that will sit
in Firing Room 1. Then we have a Support Launch

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Team of folks that's about 60. So really,
between the two rooms, we're about 150 folks.

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So that's an easy question to go answer. But
for me, I believe that everyone that develops

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this hardware, everyone that tests this hardware,
everyone that gets us to launch, is part of

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our launch team. Whether they're sitting in
a firing room or in an engineering support

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center on launch day, they are part of the
effort that got us to that day. And they're

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part of the launch team, regardless of where
they are. But to answer your question, about

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150 folks between the two firing rooms.

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Jessica, I'll start with you. Not knowing
the exact situation, how long is this countdown?

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How far out from zero do we really feel like,
hey, it's launch day? Like, how far away are

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we?

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Well, I would say our launch countdown starts
two days prior to that T-Zero time frame.

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There's a lot of preparations that have to
go down. Like Charlie said, we have to power

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up the vehicle. We have to do multiple checks...and,
again, they're all driven by requirements.

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Then we have to start the vehicle cryo loading.
That event happens...we have to check whether

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the weather is going to support. There's a
lot of different factors that have to be taken

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into account. The decision if we're going
to go ahead and yank the vehicle is done somewhere

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around like seven hours prior to the T-Zero
time frame. And takes a while. We have a large

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vehicle...to put it simple terms.

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Sure.

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So we have to balance the commodities that
go between the core stage and the ICPS, the

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upper stage of the vehicle. At that point,
that takes probably the majority of that last

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seven hours of it. We have to monitor our
ground systems, monitor the vehicle, to make

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sure that everything is going as planned.
So I would say those last two days are definitely

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what we consider to be the launch countdown.
I know I put it in simplistic terms for something

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that is-

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Our countdown is just under two days. Jess
covered it well. I was sitting here thinking

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when you were asking the question about when
does it feel like launch. Countdown two days

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prior...that's our call to stations. I think
it will feel like launch when we roll to the

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pad because we know that when we roll out
of the VAB that we have some work to do at

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the pad prior, but that is our commitment
toward that launch date and that season that

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we have, where we have several days in which
we can go launch. So I think that final rollout

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is going to be an amazing event.

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Thinking about the countdown again, is this
two days around-the-clock work; or is this

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two days like on-shift time?

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It is two days around the clock. It will be
three shifts a day.

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Whoo!

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Yep...oh, it's going to be great!

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Are you having 100 people like per shift in
the firing room ready to go, or is this just

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like certain teams have to be there?

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Yeah, just certain teams. What happens is
that it's really based on the work that has

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to get done. So we have something we call
a bar chart, which lays out sequentially the

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work that is accomplished in launch countdown.
So the personnel in the room kind of come

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and go during, I'd say, that first day of
launch countdown. By once we get ready for

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cryo load, the room's pretty full and it will
remain that way through T-Zero. Certainly

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that first day, it depends on the work that
we have. There are positions...like the test

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directors are always in the room, the integration
console is always manned. But the other consoles

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are staffed based on the work that they have
to do.

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As the Launch Director, I'm assuming that
there's going to be part of you that will

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want to be present for 48 hours straight.
That's probably an unwise decision, all things

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considered. So have you thought through like
how to break apart your time during those

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two days?

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Yes, I actually have started to think about
that. I haven't gotten to the final answer

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yet. Luckily for me, I have great support.
So I'll have to figure out those - from tanking

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on, I'll definitely be there continuously.
In that first day, I'm really, really blessed

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because I have a really strong - our program
has a really strong test management group...the

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NASA Test Directors, as well as the TOSC test
conductors. They execute that launch countdown

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on behalf of the launch director. So they
are staffed around the clock. They're there

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all the time, and they really serve during
launch as the eyes and ears of the launch

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director. So if there's something that they
believe that I need to know, they certainly

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reach out. I check in with them regularly
on that first day of launch countdown. Then

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Jess will be involved as well, and she'll
have some shifts where she'll be in the Firing

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Room kind of doing that same thing...their
issues...and letting me know. But I have started

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to think about that. I haven't laid it out
as to which shift or which time period, but

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definitely from taking down continuous. Then
prior to that, there will be shifts that I'll

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be in the Firing Room and then some where
I'll depend on the test directors or my assistant

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launch director or Jess, as the technical
assistant, to help with that.

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I would be remiss if I didn't make a special
point to say that you are NASA's first female

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Launch Director, which has got to feel like
a huge honor. I was actually talking with

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somebody...are you the first female launch
director period? Because I did a little bit

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of homework and couldn't find anybody else...so,
first female Launch Director on earth. Is

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that accurate?

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I don't know about on earth. I would say the
first one for NASA.

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Okay, we know that's true...no question about
it.

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I don't know if it's bigger than that.

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So when you got assigned - I guess the question
is, first, like how does that happen? Is that

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like you get appointed to that? Did you apply
for this job? Like how does this transpire?

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There was an announcement and I applied for
it and interviewed for it and was selected.

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So that part of it is kind of, I would say,
the normal process of like many of us got

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our jobs. So it wasn't like an appointed thing.
It was an announcement came out, and I applied.

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I'll never forget when I got the phone call
though. That's when it really kind of became,

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I would say, real.

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Is that like a holy smokes moment? You're
like...wait a second, I gotta go launch a

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rocket now.

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I'll tell you...I was actually walking across
to a meeting. At the time, my office was in

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the ONC. I was actually walking to a meeting
over in headquarters and my phone rang and

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I looked down and it said Bob Cabana.

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He's our Center Director.

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Right, and so I said...I wonder why Mr. Cabana's
calling me.

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Either a good thing or a bad thing probably.

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So he offered me the job. My interview had
been several days before, and he offered me

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the job. When he first said it, I remember
saying, "Bob, can you repeat that? I just

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want to make sure I heard you correctly.”
He repeated it, and then it was the moment

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of...wow, what a great opportunity and what
an honor!

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Awesome...yeah, congrats again on that. I
know that it's been a while since that happened,

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but I'm sure it's still kind of - and I'm
sure it won't fully set in until you see the

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rocket leave the pad. Then it's like...man,
that just happened.

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Yep, absolutely...definitely looking forward,
definitely looking forward to that launch

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day. But I will say, I am extremely blessed
in this role and I do feel honored. I am also

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very blessed to have the team that I have
because I think as a launch director, you're

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as good or you're as effective as the folks
on your team. I have an incredible, dedicated

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team that is working toward launch and making
sure that we're taking all the right steps

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and that we're working our products and that
we're getting launch countdown ready, and

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Sulphur is coming along, and all of our progress
and our sims and just all of that. It's a

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lot of work, and I'm really blessed to have
such a great team.

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I know that you're probably so focused that
this question might seem like a foreign concept,

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but is this the final career stop? Is there
somewhere to go past this? Like, is there

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more career wise; or is this like, I'm good
here...I can just hang out till I retire?

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That's a tough one. Let's see...let me think
about that for a second. So I think about

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it like this. A couple of summers ago, I went
to Zion National Park and Bryce Canyon. Every

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place we went, I thought...This is the most
beautiful place in the world. And the next

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day, there was another most beautiful place
in the world. And each of those, you stopped

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for a moment and kind of took that in. So
I think all of our careers...it's a path,

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right? It's a path and it's a journey. Every
job that I've had, I've taken that moment...kind

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of like those different destinations within
a national park, where you say, "This is an

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incredible opportunity; this is a wonderful
place, and I could stay here for a long time.”

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And then something else came along. When I
was working in payloads, I felt that way.

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When I had an opportunity to go to the Test
Director Office, I felt like it's time to

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continue that journey. I absolutely right
now cannot imagine a job more appealing than

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the one that I have. Like, I love what I do.
I love the people I work with. I can't wait

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to see that vehicle out on the pad. So for
me, it's hard to think beyond that. But I

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never want to say, "Nope, this is it," because
you never know what life has in store. If

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I had stopped at some of those other locations
and decided not to take that path to the next

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one, I wouldn't be where I am today. I wouldn't
get this opportunity. So I don't like to say,

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"Nope, there's nothing else after this.”
But I will tell you, it is hard to imagine

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a job better than the one that I have.

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Sure.

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And there is no other job right now that I
would want.

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Cool. Jess, any interest in becoming a launch
director someday?

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No, I've told her that level of responsibility
she has in that job...I don't know if I could

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deal with it. I am just glad to be part of
her team and be supporting her. Like I said,

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I don't know where my career would lead. Like
Charlie, I've taken different roads that led

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me to a different place. I never really had
a plain career path that I said, "Yes, I'm

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going to be supporting the EM-1 launch team.”
And yet, here I am. So I'm just honored to

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be working side by side with Charlie and being
part of that EM-1 launch team.

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Fantastic. We're going to the moon. We need
to not forget our destination here. We're

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not just launching a rocket. We're going somewhere.
We're going to the moon. The president has

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given us a charge to be boots on the moon
2024, five years from now. That road appears

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to run through the Space Launch System, which
means that it runs through your Firing Room.

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Tell me about what that's like to hear that
announcement come out about, hey, 2024...let's

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go.

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Exciting... I think about our first crewed
flight. I mean, you're absolutely right...boots

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on the moon in five years does run through
our launch vehicle. It does run through our

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exploration missions, and it absolutely runs
through Firing Room 1 and our launch team.

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I think all of us on that launch team recognize
that. We recognize the cadence that is to

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come. I know that there will be challenges
and things we'll have to go work through.

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But for me, it is absolutely exciting.

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So, Jess, being a little bit kind of further
down the line from that...as you guys are

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having meetings, I'm sure this is coming up
in conversation. Obviously, it puts an urgency

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to the 2020 launch of SLS. Is there a change
in mood and atmosphere from the teams in the

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Firing Room or just in the planning and preparation
portion?

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I would say everyone in our program is really
excited. I think a lot of us have been working

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on this vehicle for a long time. Knowing that
we have this sense of urgency to get there,

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to have a distinct goal, it is very exciting.
I mean, I can imagine some similarities back

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in the '60s when they said, "We're going to
get to the moon by the end of this decade.”

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It's kind of that urgency, that dedication
of people...let's try to do what we can to

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get there, give the best of ourselves to make
sure we accomplish the mission. So I think

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that is reflected in everybody that works
for our program.

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I would add to that. I'm glad you said that,
Jess, because it put a thought in my head.

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I think that when you think about that and
you lay out the work, there will be challenges.

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But one of the things that I think our team
does...and I saw it so many times in the Firing

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Room in Shuttle...is that when we have a challenge,
when we have a technical problem that needs

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to be solved, our teams come together. They
rally, they resolve it, and we move on. So

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I look at this as a great opportunity for
our teams to meet those challenges, and I

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see the same thing. I think there's a sense
of purpose and direction and urgency and just

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a sense of excitement for what's to come.
We're a part of something incredibly special.

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So does it become some kind of like a war
cry almost of like when there's long days,

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there's stressful days, there's challenges,
it's like...hey, 2024, let's go.

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Well, I can only speak for myself, right?
On my board I have the words, "What do I have

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to do today to get to EM-1?” I really need
to change that now that we have the boots

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on the moon 2024; and it really needs to say,
"What do I have to do today to get boots on

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the moon for 2024?” But for me, I look at
that every single day; and I do think about

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that. That is a guiding principle for me.
When I come in and figure out what am I going

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to spend my time on, it really is through
the lens of what do I have to do to get us

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to launch? And I know I'm not alone in that.
I know that our program and our sister programs

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at SLS and Orion...while they may have something
different written on their board, I know that

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they're marching to that same cadence.

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Awesome. Thinking about your own paths to
get to where you are and for those, Charlie,

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kind of in your experience that might walk
into your Firing Room and just kind of marvel

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at the team, as you look and think about the
next generation, what would you say to them?

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If you could kind of have a few minutes with
them, what would be the advice...what would

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be the words of encouragement or inspiration
or challenge to them?

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Well, one of my favorite parts of this job,
besides obviously planning launch countdown

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and launch ops, is the opportunity to speak
to and work with young people. I like to encourage

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young folks to consider the STEM field. Because
I look at it -- I had a high school teacher

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that actually...when I was in the 11th grade,
I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was kind

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of thinking about different options. My physics
teacher actually said, "Charlie, have you

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ever thought about being an engineer?” Man,
I was like...hm, what would I do with that

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degree, right? That was the question I asked
him. And he said, "What couldn't you do with

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that degree?” Now, how right he has been.
I mean, I look at all of the things that I

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have been able to be a part of; and it was
all opened by that engineering degree. So

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I would say to young folks and to young girls
to consider that STEM field because you never

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know where that path will lead you. If you
would have told me in the 11th grade when

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that physics teacher encouraged me to consider
engineering in college that one day I would

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have an opportunity to work on flight hardware,
that one day I would be a part of a shuttle

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launch team, that one day I would be the first
woman Launch Director for NASA...that would

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have been hard to take in. But all of those
things were possible because of the education

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and the background and the opportunity that
that engineering degree brought to me. Now,

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it took a lot of hard work. It took a lot
of other things as well, but absolutely that

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was that first step. So I would say engineering
is a great career field, and it opens up a

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variety of doors.

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I feel like we definitely face a lot of challenges
in our careers. I'm trying to think of a specific

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example. But to me...I've done this a lot
in my career, where I've moved into an unknown

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field, something that I've never done before.
That's when I was kind of joking at the beginning.

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It's like, yeah, I've gone to different places
in my career here at the Space Center...not

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even with a direct path...but I took a chance.
I would say maybe coming to this job was an

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example of that. I said, "I don't have any
experience on launch countdown, but I'll learn

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to see what it takes to get there.” I mean,
that's definitely a challenge. I cannot tell

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you there's not something every day that I
don't learn about for the first time. But

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it's kind of like keep pushing your boundaries
to get you there.

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00:34:18,530 --> 00:34:23,360
Awesome. A great pleasure being with both
of you...Charlie Blackwell-Thompson, our Launch

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Director, Jessica Parsons, her right hand.
I am so excited and so glad it's you and not

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me. Good luck this coming year and, obviously,
all the way through 2024.

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00:34:35,510 --> 00:34:34,510
Thank you.

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It's going to be great.

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We are excited to watch the triumph of the
entire Space Launch System Team in the coming

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years and wish them all speedy success. Special
thanks to our guests, Charlie Blackwell-Thompson

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and Jessica Parsons.

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To learn more about Exploration Ground Systems,
visit: nasa.gov/egs. To learn more about everything

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00:35:00,780 --> 00:35:07,990
going on at the Kennedy Space Center, go to:
nasa.gov/kennedy. Check out NASA's other podcasts

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00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:13,941
to learn more about what's happening at all
of our centers at nasa.gov/podcasts. A special

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00:35:13,941 --> 00:35:18,900
shout-out to our producer, John Sackman, our
soundman, Lorne Mathre, editor Michelle Stone,